Donkey Thank you for your very gracious reply! I responded to some of your concerns but will respond more if you feel helpful. Also could you please please tell me where you found the section critical about my article on hesperopithicus? I would like to use it in an article but need the source (and do not want to get caught using the wrong source again!!!!!!) More later.
Jerry Bergman
JoinedPosts by Jerry Bergman
-
118
Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
-
-
-
118
Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
-
-
Jerry Bergman
Yes I am talking about the "ape-man" and "proof" references. A "substantial insertion" did not occur. What happened is the correct reference was garbled and I cannot find it now! I have no reason to believe that the quote is wrong, but I have not bothered to look for it because it is a secondary source and not needed. I just quoted Osborn himself! Osborn referred to "Nebraska Man" as more than an "ape-man" but as a man-ape (stressing the man) and he did say that this 'discovery' was "proof that some primitive humans lived in America" in numerous places. One quote is from The Forum (Vol. 73 Je 1925 page 801) where he said Hesperopithecus was "irrefutable evidence that the man-apes wondered over from Asia into North America" I am sure I could find a dozed other quotes (and I noted several when glancing over my file of his articles) but it is getting late and I plan to do a whole paper on this (it is an example of what I have seen over and over)
I suppose I'll have to read your entire set of papers, but when Darwin spoke of "races" in this context he was certainly talking about what we today call "species". I don't know what he later wrote about race with respect to humans, (he wrote enough to cause big problems!!)but whatever he wrote, it is of little importance with respect to modern notions of evolution. (not true at all) The best one can say is that one could argue that Darwin's ideas might be used as a basis for racism -- not a very sparkling conclusion. (Much more than a basis) One could equally argue that the Bible is a basis for racism and slavery. History shows that plenty of self-proclaimed Christians have done exactly that. (Sure have!! And they should be called on the carpet for this!!) I need to send you my papers on this.
The point is that reducing a complex theory to a simplistic phrase like "evolution and racism are the same thing" is just as misleading and a misrepresentation of the facts as reducing Christianity to a simplistic phrase like "Christianity and human slavery are the same thing". Do you not agree? Yes and No. As I do more research my conclusion has become stronger! Simplistic phrases, though, can mislead
Just to keep our discussion absolutely clear, do you now agree with the statement, "Evolution and racism are the same thing"? Briefly, why or why not? Both deal with selection based on superior inferior concerns and judgments
-
118
Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
-
-
Jerry Bergman
Alan
Thanks for your note As you know, when a paper finally gets published, four or five reviewers go though it and the editor adds his two cents worth. What evidently happened is the source of the entire quote is wrong, not the quote, as I could not find it in the article cited anywhere (if you find it please let me know). Where the error happened I can not at this date determine. I checked my original manuscript and the controversial quote is not there. As I have published close to 600 articles and books etc, one who goes though each one will find mistakes such as this one. I have, when revising my own articles, found several myself. Part of the problem is we have had several typists at the college (some excellent, others far less accurate). I always check everything carefully, but sometimes mistakes slip by. I used to have graduate students do this work (a very common practice) and some of them were not very good (I could check their work, but than I may as well just do it myself). A typo (which is all that has been shown to have occurred) is quite different than trying to mislead someone as claimed. The quote adds nothing to the paper, and I can send you the original to verify this. The charge against me is slanderous and not accurate. How can one condone this? I commonly find errors in papers that I review and we do not go around accusing the authors of dishonesty, but, at the most, carelessness. One new study found that reference "misprints" are fairly common in the scientific literature (Simkin et al. New Scientist Dec. 14 2002. reviews the article). From what I have read, my reference misprints are below average (but not perfect). As to "Evolution and racism are the same thing," my papers on this are over 100 pages long so there is no way I can respond here. All I can do is send the papers as my response. Briefly, the key to Darwinism is selection, and for selection to occur there must be biological differences that effect survival. If all humans were equal, selection would not be able to operate except randomly. Darwin and his followers were very clear on this as I show in my work. The subtitle of Darwin's 1859 work was "or the preservation of the favored races in the struggle for life" an idea that he later applied to humans.
Edited by - Jerry Bergman on 30 December 2002 11:7:47
Edited by - Jerry Bergman on 30 December 2002 20:58:36
-
118
Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
-
-
Jerry Bergman
In response to: According to whom? Who gets to be the judge? You? Me? my answer would be neither of us but the facts as determined by a impartial investigation (and especially a scientific investigation). An example is, how do we know that the heart pumps blood? It was believed by most everyone that the heart was the "mind" and was the seat of the emotions (thus, when one got upset the heart would beat faster) until William Harvey proved that the heart is a pump that pumped the blood throughout the body. Everyone who is informed now acknowledges this (and if you doubt it, you can do experiments that prove it) although in a 1971 article the Watchtower tried to argue that the heart was in fact the seat of emotions! This blatant ignoring of reality was one of many reasons why I eventually left the Watchtower. They were wrong and it was not a matter of my or anyone else's opinion, but demonstrated fact. Likewise with religion, we should be able to at least prove in the same way some of the major ideas of a faith (and if any are proven wrong, this says that we should look elsewhere). If I said the heart pumps blood, and you said that is your opinion, I could prove it to you by experiment if you were willing to look into it. The key is provable fact, not opinion.
-
118
Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
-
-
Jerry Bergman
To Waiting
An excellent post!!! Your paper should get an A++
Also, it was very well put (and you did not need to resort to name calling)!
Is there an award for posts? If so I nominate your post.
-
118
Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
-
-
Jerry Bergman
Jack Don't put yourself down!! Some of the brightest people I know (including some of my closest intellectual friends) never set foot in a college. If you can present evidence (or evidence of the research) most of us don't care what your formal education is! Also I never said all ExWitnesses who became atheists were bitter, only that I know of some (actually a fair number) who are very bitter. If you are an ExWitness and not better, than the comment does not apply to you (and it should not bother you that I made this observation). Actually, most of the exWitnesses that I have associated with for the past 25 years became active Christians, so it takes some getting used to to process the responses of those who are not similar to those I am used to. This is my problem, not those who this label does not fit.
-
118
Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
-
-
Jerry Bergman
Donkey I have already responded extensively to this slander. Please see http://www.rae.org/notracist.html It is a good idea to do one's home work before spreading malicious slander. Also, the brief of my BGSU case is also on the Internet at: http://www.rae.org/BergmanTenure.htm: (or use http://www.rae.org/index.html . then click on Bergman BGSU Case). I am amazed at the hate, slander and lies manifested by so many when one is trying to discuss religion.
Edited by - Jerry Bergman on 28 December 2002 13:8:54
-
118
Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
-
-
Jerry Bergman
As to you never even took an interest in my questions to you about the bible being authentic from god. I asked if you studied the skeptical side and you rode right past my post. Why? I am very interested in this question (but have so much to respond to that time is a problem). A ton of books exist on the question of Biblical inspiration, and I have read maybe 30 of them. One has been advertised on this site. My conclusion is, of all books that claim to be inspired that have survived to today and still have adherents, it is my conclusion that the Bible has the most evidence by far to back up this claim. I am not saying I understand all of it, but that of the parts that I have studied, its claims are supported by fact and scientific study. Check out the book advertised on this site (a good start). Some are written by secular non believers and do a good job making a case for the Bibles authenticity .
Edited by - Jerry Bergman on 28 December 2002 16:20:20
-
33
Paranoid Schizophrenia
by Nickey inthis is an issue that i've had to look into due to the extreme paranoia of my mother.
it's getting ridiculous.
and it get's worse everytime she reads the publications.
-
-
Jerry Bergman
A very interesting thread! I have worked with many many Witness paranoiacs when I was practicing so all of this sounds very familiar to me (and obviously to others). This is why I wrote my book on Witnesses and the Problem of Mental Health (and my critics have hammered it home to the media that I am way off base. They claimed that there is no problem with mental illness among the Witnesses)! The Australian study by Dr Spencer concluded paranoid schizophrenia is 4 times higher among the Witnesses population than the nonWitness population. I am still convinced that this is true. By the way, it is a very difficult area to deal with, and the courts and mental hospitals are not much help in many cases. I am aware of many horror stories!
-
118
Would some of us be better off as Witnesses?
by Jerry Bergman ini have often wondered if many people would be better off if they stayed witnesses.
some people i have known have really gone off the deep end after they left the watchtower.
most all of my family have left now (not due to me as i was cut off from them for years) and many others i know who have left are now bitter atheists or have become pagans and worship stones or new ageers playing with crystals.
-
-
Jerry Bergman
JT
I was always being told by other elders to "CHECK YOUR WIFE" I detect some bragging here. Just kidding (this background helps me and others know where you are coming from). You are now a person with a past.